OK LET's Discuss End Times

The four blood moons is real, not a hoax. It is well documented. Do a little research.

The discovery of the phenomenon was apparently originally a man by the name of Mark Biltz. There are many videos on YouTube of him discussing the idea and how he discovered it. It is a verifiable astronomical phenomenon. NASA is not going to have a page that says "Four blood moons." You have to research all the occurrences of blood moons (complete lunar eclipses) appearing on dates of Jewish holidays visible in Jerusalem. This takes a little digging. Fortunately, many others (especially Mark Biltz) have already done that research for us. Here is a good introductory discussion of the blood moon tetrad:



Here is another basic discussion by Mark Biltz of this phenomenon and its significance

Actually, Mark Blitz from El Shaddai Ministries is the one who discovered the blood moons on God's Feast Days...
www.elshaddaiministries.us/

He has some great and sound teachings on the Feast Days on You Tube. 

If this time clock is the one then this next Passover will be 3.5 years... the big trouble begins

mortsmune, You misunderstood, I never said I was post-trib.

@ mortsmune, I do not wish to argue about the rapture with you or anyone. I was just stating my own opinion on what I have study throughout the years. let us not forget that we are brothers and sisters in CHRIST OUR LORD, and show GODS LOVE towards one another.For OUR HEAVENLY FATHER likes that when HE SEES HIS children getting along and LOVING each other, for we are not promise another day, we have just this moment in time. For no one knows when GOD will call that person home. I have to go now may the Peace of OUR LORD JESUS be with you and your family, have a wonderful day. bye , andy.

Mortsmune said:
Second, if there is no pre-trib rapture, then how do you reconcile the fact that 1Thes 5:9 says that we are not appointed to wrath, yet the Tribulation period is a time when God pours out his wrath upon all the inhabitants of the earth? If we are to go through the Tribulation, then 1Thes 5:9 is a lie, which would make God a liar. This is a significant theological problem for the post-trib doctrine.

Well Mortsmune, God's word in not and never will be a lie and God is certainly not a liar. What is happening is a mis-understanding of his word. If you study further, you will find that the tribulation is in 2 parts, tribulation and then the great tribulation. The first part is the wrath of Satan and the 2nd part is the wrath of God.

Satan's Wrath:

Daniel 11:36
“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

In 2 Thess 2, Jesus is telling us that the man of sin WILL BE revealed BEFORE he comes back, but does not tell us here how long it is after the revealing that he (Jesus) does come back.

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

God did narrow it down some more in his visions given to Daniel.

Daniel 7:25
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Daniel 12:7
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

So, we are being told that the after the man of sin is revealed that he has been given power over the saints for a time, times and half a time. (3.5 years)
However, in Rev. 12:14, we are given a promise of God providing for us during that time.

Revelation 12:14
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

God tells us in Amos:

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

So, if God is going to come get us in the middle of the tribulation, where does he tell us this?

In Revelation 14:

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Notice all that happens though BEFORE the 1st sickle is thrust into the earth.

The Proclamations of Three Angels
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Bea,
You are correct about the Tribulation period being in two parts. However, you are wrong about the first half being the wrath of Satan and the second part being the wrath of God. This is a contrivance that does not fit with the Biblical evidence.

1. The first mention of divine wrath in the Book of Revelation occurs at Rev 6:16-17. This is the opening of the sixth seal, which is very close to the beginning of the Tribulation Period.
2. The beginning of the wrath of Satan begins with the Abomination of Desolation when the antichrist defiles the temple of God and proclaims himself as god. This is when the mark of the beast is instituted and the image of the beast is set up. This clearly occurs at the middle of the tribulation, not the beginning. This is when the "wrath" of the beast begins in earnest. The wrath of God begins at the beginning of the Tribulation Period, not at the middle. Satan is cast to the earth in chapter 12 of Revelation. This is when his wrath begins (rev 12:12). Pretty much the entire Tribulation period is the wrath of God.
3. The "wrath of Satan" during this time is part of the wrath of God. Satan is ALLOWED by God to rage upon the earth during this time. God is using Satan to fulfill His own plan. Satan is an executor of God's wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth. The distinction of the wrath of Satan from the wrath of God is an artificial contrivance. It is all part of God's punishment upon the inhabitants of the earth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mortsume,
It is no contrivance. You are not taking into account how the telling of the end times in the book of revelation is told. We are first given an "overall" view of the things/events that are comming and then it is re-told giving greater detail about the things/events that are comming. Read the entire book with this in mind and you can put those events together. This can be clearly seen as each of these events only happen one time each. If what you are saying were true, each of these events would happen two times.

Here is a scripture for you.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The scripture says that satan has a "short" time of wrath. Satan currently is the ruler of this earth. With each opening of each seal, his authority is being stripped from him. It is a legal process of the heavenlies.

I don't believe that god would send satan to torture his children and also protect his children from the one who is torturing and in effect, that is what you are saying. Think about what you are saying. God is not schitzophrenic.

Mortsume,
I will try to clarify some things.

Let's take things one by one so that confusion and frustration does not set in. So, as we hash out each item, we can either agree to disagree or then go on to the next item in the overall discussion.

Ok, you say that........." It is God who forces Satan to the earth in Rev 12. In that sense God is "sending" him here."

I can see how you could think this but I see it differently so let's take a closer look at those scriptures. I believe that I posted those first scriptures in the NKJV so I am switching back to the standard KJV.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

In verse 13, it uses the word CAST. The dragon saw that he was CAST unto the earth. This is not God SENDING satan or ALLOWING satan to do anything. Satan is being CAST (forcibly ejected) to the earth (from the heavenly realm), and this is why I state that as each seal is opened, the authority of satan over this earth is being stripped from him.

I'm sorry. I'm not following your logic or your conclusions. If Satan is CAST to the earth, that is an act of sending. One definition of "send" is "to put or drive into a given state or condition." Another is "to cause to take place or occur." With that understanding, it is quite proper to say that in Rev. 12, God "sends" Satan to the earth, and He allows Satan to do all the things that he does during that time. The fact that Satan does the things he does on earth during the Tribulation means that God "allows" him to do so. If God did not allow it, it would not occur.

I don't know what logical connection there is to Satan being "cast" to the earth and his having his authority over the earth stripped. Certainly, the message in the Book of Revelation and in Daniel is not one of Satan having his authority "stripped," as you claim. On the contrary, Satan gives his authority to the beast (antichrist), who is in turn given authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations. He is given authority to "make war" on the saints and to "overcome them." Satan's authority over the earth will not be stripped from him until he is thrown into the bottomless pit and, ultimately, into the lake of fire.

First, the woman is referring to Israel, not the Church. It says Satan "persecutes" her. There is nothing about "torture." The Greek word is dioko. It means to pursue or chase, not torture. He pursues her, and God hides and protects her through the last half of the Tribulation (time, times, and half a time/3 1/2 years).  This is after the abomination of desolation takes place (second half of the Tribulation).

In summary, yes, the scripture clearly states that Satan will persecute (pursue) the woman (Israel). It does not say that he will "torture" her. He does, however, execute those who come to believe during the tribulation, not the church and not Israel.

All this is pussyfooting around the fact that the Tribulation Period is the time the Bible also calls "the day of wrath" and "the day of the wrath of the LORD," "the day of destruction," and "the day of His fierce anger."

Persecute, torture, you are mencing words. Many times Christians were persecuted by tortureing. I think that being boiled alive in oil would qualify as both torture and persecution.

We seem to be getting off track.

Anyways, you said that, "First, the woman is referring to Israel, not the Church."

There is only ONE bride, ONE church. Remember this scripture........from Romans 2........

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is only ONE bride, there are not 2 brides, one jewish and one prodestant. In the above scripture, Paul is telling us who the children of Jesus (jews) really are. Jesus was/is a jew. Yes, we are gentiles but we have been grafted INTO him. Even in the book of Galations, we are told that when we come to Jesus that there is no more greek, jew, bond or free, male or female. So, your theory of this only happening to Israel and not the "church" just does not hold water because we are one and the same in his eyes.